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ALIAS SMITH AND DOESinger/songwriters Elliott Smith and John Doe talk about writing songs, making records and going after the big carrot.
John: Whatever happened with Heatmiser? Is that like a done deal? Elliott: It's a done deal.
John: Yeah? In a good way or in a bad way? Elliott: In a good way except for one person. |
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John: Oh. It's a hard thing. I know with this X stuff... Exene and I had a long conversation like a year, maybe a year and a half ago. I had written a bunch of songs that really seemed to be X songs, and she really wanted to rededicate herself to sort of just do the band, and just that. Which I completely respected. I thought that was the way it should be: It should either be full on or not at all. And I said, "Well, I've got these other things that I want to do," so we decided, OK, let's not do X. And that was before we started putting together a box set. And for two months after that, it was really hard to adjust. If you said, "OK, that's it, I quit. I'm never going to do music again," and then suddenly... which I know you've gotten to. Right? You've gotten to that point? Elliott: Where I've wanted to quit? (laughs) Yeah, usually every time I record. Yeah. I get to this point where I'm like "Man, these songs all suck and I'm just embarrassing myself."
John: Yeah. Well, I think that's part of it. I think embarrassing yourself is part of it. I think it is a big part of being the kind of singer that you are, that people that are worth it are. Elliott: I mean, if you're going to get hung up on that point, then it's not very likely that you are going to be a singer/songwriter.
John: That's a scary point to get to though, isn't it? When you get to that point where you are like, "OK, I've had it. That's it, god dammit!" And then you realize that nobody gives a shit. And then you realize, "Oh my god. What am I gonna do now?" Elliott: It's like OK, nobody cares except for me. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody else is getting all bent out of shape about this. And anyway, it always makes other people feel good if you can make an idiot out of yourself, because then they feel less like idiots themselves.
John: I wish I could let the lyrics sort of grow by themselves a little bit more, rather than making it be something, or making the melody be a certain way. Just letting it go. Letting it go and letting it find something new. Elliott: When I was in my band I used to stress out about my lyrics, and that didn't help. I used to try and make them be a certain way. I tried everything to try and write words I liked, and none of my plans worked out. So now I don't really try to do anything in particular, and it's easier to write more than when I'm not recording. I'll go out pretty much every night and go out and just sit somewhere and just write stuff. I never used to do that that much before. It got to a point where it was really fun. I didn't make myself do it. Part of it was I moved to a new city and I didn't really know very many people. Rather than sitting at the bar, trying not to look out of place or whatever, I would just sit there and do my own thing.
John: That was New York? Elliott: Yeah.
John: New York is a pretty inspiring place. I mean, for all the shit that goes down there. Elliott: Yeah, it seems like it can be inspiring in both ways: a good way and a bad way.
John: So have you tried live guitar or vocal band? The whole deal? Elliott: You mean recording-wise? Sometimes I sing and play at the same time, but I don't have a band. I have to kind of do everything one at a time. It seems like it would be fun. I was going to ask you what you think about playing alone versus being in a band. I was in a band I didn't like very much, so that kind of colored my opinion a little bit.
John: It's compromise, you know? I think it's how you deal with that compromise. Because making a record is a compromise. I think if the band is a band, and there is not a lot of pressure put on by individuals or a record company or... usually it's just by the people themselves. I think the whole concept of record company pressure is a fallacy. I think people do it themselves. Elliott: It seems easy enough to shrug that kind of pressure off.
John: Well it is and it isn't. When you get into the hardball game of record company stuff... They are holding out this huge carrot and saying "if you were to do this, you might get this." And it is really difficult to resist that. I think X definitely started believing the critics, started believing their shit. But we were never like Sonic Youth, just fuck 'em all, total iconoclasts. We always thought "If we play the game to a degree and still stay true to ourselves, then we'll succeed." Elliott: Right.
John: You know, it sometimes works it sometimes doesn't. I think we had a lot of bad timing. Elliott: That's a better attitude than I have. My whole thing with the big carrot is that I'm never going to really get the big carrot. It's harder to worry about if you just feel like you are never going to get the big carrot.
John: See, I don't think of it as much of a reward, anyway. The only thing that is good about that, is that when its all over-which is sooner than later, as I found out--then you have a shit load of money. (laughs) Like Flea, or a couple of other people that I know who have gotten rich from the entertainment industry, apart from me, 'cause I certainly am not. So that is the only thing I want now is for someone to pay the bills. I want to be able to have enough money to record a record without paying people myself. If that happens, I'm fine. I'll do it for cheap and make it beautiful or ugly. I'll just make it. Elliott: Yeah, I've always done that, because I have never had the opportunity to make it sound like it sounded in my head. This time, I can, theoretically, take some time with it and make it sound like it is supposed to. It stresses me out to get too attached to sounds in my head, because I feel like I am setting myself up for disappointment when I do that. Sometimes you've got to zoom back out and imagine that you really haven't heard this before, even in your head.
John: But what would be disappointing about it? That someone else wouldn't appreciate it? Elliott: No, that, if I got really attached to the way something was supposed to sound, and then can't make it sound like that, then that would be... because nothing ever turns out for me exactly the way I had it in my head. So for me, that would be a constant level of frustration that I don't need. But on the other hand, obviously, I try to make things turn out that way.
John: See, half the time, my problem is that I don't really have any idea of what it should sound like. It just sort of develops as it goes. There's one moment of perfection in song writing for me. And that is when you can sit down and play it from beginning to end, by yourself, and there are limitless possibilities of what this song could be. This could be the next theme to the Coca-Cola generation; I want to write a song that makes the world stand up and sing--you know, whatever the hell that thing was. And it has the potential of people suddenly realizing how amazing life is. You know what I mean? Elliott: mm-hm.
John: And then after that it is all kind of sideways, uphill a little bit and then downhill and then, it gets all strange. But that moment I think is worth it all. When it kind of has limitless possibilities. And you kind of always come back and visit that, but it's never quite the same. Elliott: I'm always the most confident when I am making up the songs. And then I am at a low point of confidence about half way through the record, because then I start to hear what the record's going to sound like and then it can't just be any record, it's "Oh, OK, I see, it's going to be this kind of record." And then there is always kind of discouragement like "OK, well, a month or two ago, when I was walking around at night, thinking of stuff to be on the record, I imagined it could be all these different ways and now it's one way. And it's always as soon as you record something, it turns into one way, that way, whatever it was right then.
John: But the beauty of that is the document. That this is what anybody does when they are making this record--a record in the most general definition, to record an event, a point in time. Which is frustrating because there are so many other ways it could go. But on the other hand, it's this beautiful thing of like "This is where it was at the time." Like getting a tattoo--it's the perfect example. You may not think the workmanship is that great two years down the line, but still you have that point of reference, the memory of what happened when. Elliott: But everybody is so concerned about the end product, you know? It's all about the record. The record company wants to sell the record, and people like the record or they don't like the record, and the record is like this little part, you know? It's not even my favorite part. My favorite part is when I go, "Oh, OK, there is a song here, and it's about to be done, like made up." Like "Oh, OK. I see what I am doing." That's really fun.
John: Yeah, well, there is an incredible amount of--I don't know if there is more--but it seems as though there is more pressure now than there was 10 or 20 years ago. But I think because people have gotten million-selling records on home recordings or, you know, hit songs on big-budget recordings that are pretty outside, you know, pretty bent, alternative, whatever you'd like to call them, that that makes the record company and the artist put pressure on. Because this has the potential of doing that. And it's a huge mistake. I mean, I want the record company to work their ass off and do their job. Period. Because I'm trying to do my job. Don't fuck off. Don't make a bunch of excuses. Just be there, and do your job. You know? And I'm not expecting you to be a genius, although that would be nice. But it's an incredible amount of pressure and the whole state of the business is really difficult because of the novelty element to top 20, or... how small is it now? Top eight yet? Top eight radio? Elliott: To me it just looks like if you are not number one, then you are not really succeeding. So I'm always going to be failing. So I don't even really think about it. I'm not going to be selling billions of records, because I don't make up the kind of stuff that's going to, you know, get a bunch of soccer fans going. (Laughter)
John: You never know, you know? The next record may have that Gary Glitter song. (makes guitar riff sounds) Elliott: It's so odd that sports anthems are... Gary Glitter and like two Queen songs. Chumbawamba now. (sings) "I get knocked down..." It really is big in like... soccer.
John: Because of the "lager drinks, and the wine drinks and the..." Elliott: "...whiskey drink, and a vodka drink, and another drink and it rhymes with drink..." (laughs)
John: It's a pretty infectious song. (Tape stops)
John: A long time ago--well, not too long ago--I realized that making a record is your reward. Elliott: Yeah. Like when we were talking about something else. Like the carrot--not being able to get the big carrot. But the big carrot is nothing compared to just being able to do it. It's a total kick to be able to make a record in the first place.
John: That is so true. Elliott: I don't think I am ever going to feel like "Oh yeah, it's another record." I mean... maybe after it's done or something. But while you are doing it?
John: Yeah. It's a weird thing though, the way you get desensitized to what a gift you have been given, not to sound like a born-again Christian or anything? You get desensitized by it, and you take shit for granted, which is totally wrong, and in your right mind, you would never do. I definitely did that when I was signed to Geffen. Definitely. I made this record, spent way too much money on it, just because I was fucking deluded. I had been doing this X thing, and it had been going sort of good and then it sort of leveled off but we still made good stuff, and then I had this opportunity to do this solo record and then I was signed to like seven records with Geffen, and realized that that was an incredible opportunity. But then when the first record didn't do as well as they had hoped, and they didn't support it the way that I hoped they would, and I didn't understand what an opportunity I had, you know, after that was all sort of unfulfilling, I kinda took the whole thing for granted and just let it kinda go away. Like a fucking idiot! You know, at this point, I would kill to have that opportunity. I would. Even though it might seem... Elliott: What was wrong in your thinking about it?
John: Well I realized I should have paid more attention to that opportunity as a career. What I did was I went off and did an X record, and by the time I wanted to go back to doing some solo stuff, Gary Gersh had left Geffen, was part of Capitol, and he was the guy that signed me. I sorta got dropped because I didn't realize "Hey, I've got to keep after this and I've got to pay attention to these people or they are gonna feel like I am taking them for granted--which I did--and they are gonna say, "You know what? You don't give a shit about this. Why should we?" Which is something I see in, like, younger musicians is they understand what it means. They understand what it means to have that opportunity. Elliott: It doesn't seem like you didn't take it for granted.
John: It wasn't in a conscious way. It was very unconscious. In another way, I am also glad that X never had a gigantic hit. In a way I am kind of glad that "White Girl" wasn't on every radio station for like two months. Elliott: Still, a lot of people have those records. A lot of people.
John: Sure. But it's for your soul and not being a total has-been, it's better not to have had that. Elliott: Oh yeah. Hits can really come back to haunt people, even if they are good songs. Just because it's like "Well, I had a hit before and now I don't have a hit." That's like a total drag. So many new bands you can just see them washing down the drain. As soon as their hit comes out it's like "There it was, there's their peak."
John: And it's really sad. Some have been able to rise above that, like Radiohead, I think, did. Elliott: Yeah, I've just been getting in to Radiohead.
John: Which is really great. You know, they had their first song and they couldn't get anything else played from that record and it looked like that was over. But this last record is really great, even though it has sort of these arty pretensions. Elliott: Yeah. Beck did that too, it seemed to me. Because "Loser" was kind of a novelty hit to a lot of people.
John: Somebody said to Joey that somebody wrote in an article about Beck, "Can you say Tommy Tutone?" (laughs) John: But you know what's so weird about Beck? And this is from an outsider's perspective--I met him a few times and I am really good friends with Joey and Smoky 'cause they played on my record. But the heart of that record, the K record, One Foot In The Grave, I really miss that in Odelay, I mean it. And this post-modern, "I can't let down my guard enough to be hurt" thing. You know? I can't care that much. Which is one of the things I still really respect about Pearl Jam is like, it's really fucking important. And it is, you know? Elliott: I don't think people really get better or worse, they just kind of move sideways, and like, that's the spot that he sort of landed on right then.
John: On Odelay? Elliott: Yeah, on Odelay. He went full on for where he was at right then.
John: Yeah, see I agree. And I'm not saying that... It was a brilliant move, and it is definitely art, which I respect. Elliott: Oh, I'm not taking issue with what you are saying. I understand. I mean, the K record was kinda a whole different thing going on with it. But there are lots of ways to make really good records. One of the things I like about Beck is that he can make Odelay and that K record. Because a lot of times, people get some attention and whatever the first thing they get attention for, it gets locked in, and not just in other people's perceptions of them, but in their own perceptions of themselves. So they keep repeating the same thing that initially got them a response that made them feel good about what they were doing. So when someone can make One Foot In The Grave and then the next year make Odelay, one of them might connect better with somebody than the other one, but I just think that's really cool. 'Cause also, the way that the press is, they want to get you stuck in one thing. For me, it's like soft music. And I have no intention of playing strictly soft music for the rest of my life. It just happens to be where I am at the time. And you can't get out of that, you know?
John: Well, you have to find something to replace it that is as interesting and has as much impact and is as committed. There are a lot of different sides to this question. I mean, it's better to be known for something than for nothing. Even if that something is sort of a constricting pigeonhole. I think that in a way they're satisfied by the range that X had, but in another way, we should have kept more of a punk rock core to it, not gotten so seduced by the roots and Americana kind of thing. Although some people prefer that incarnation. Elliott: I don't prefer that incarnation. I just thought it was really cool that X changed.
John: But a lot of people can't dig that. I think audiences have trouble figuring that out. Elliott: Particularly a punk audience.
John: Yeah. Elliott: That's like an especially constricting crowd. Or it can be.
John: Mmm. Well, it goes along with that initial wave of punk rock which was all the New York bands, which would be from Blondie to Television and Ramones and Talking Heads and all the, you know, "in betweens," which was total eclectics. Elliott: Right.
John: And then the South Bay LA hardcore scene, which was much more narrow and didn't allow for hard rock. It was just all aggression and speed. Elliott: It doesn't seem like it was a constricting sound then. I mean, I wasn't really around then...
John: What? The Black Flag, South Bay, kind of hardcore punk rock? Elliott: Yeah, it wasn't...
John: It was. Elliott: It was?
John: It was like punk nazi shit. That was one of the things that bummed out Darby Crash so much. Here was this audience that was going crazy for him, but meanwhile they'd go beat the shit out of somebody who was gay. And it's like "Hey, wait a minute. Hold on a second, this is not right." Elliott: My problem is with people who weren't even around when punk started but they are really sure they are right about what the music oughtta sound like, you know? (laughs)
John: That's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing of being whatever age mentally or physically someone is, "I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, but I know I'm right." Elliott: Yeah, but it seems like when people... like hearing Ed Kuepper from the Saints talk about playing music, to compare that to what some punk rock scenester nowadays or especially a couple of years ago or something would say about music is like night and day. Ed Kuepper will talk about playing music, but the scenester guy will talk about the scene, how this sucks and that sucks and this sucks and that sucks. And it's that way with any style. With any style of music, there are always going to be people that are just committed to that style, and they can't get past it. Anything else is just a big drag. "I don't like it if it's not country." (laughs)
John: I don't know... It's kind of beautiful and terrible at the same time. Because believing in just one thing can be really great. Cause then you are totally committed to that one thing. Elliott: Energizes them, I think, really seriously.
John: I think that's kinda what punk rock was all about. Because music was so scattered and had got kind of soft and stuff, even though there were still good things going on. Just like the mainstream, everyone was sort of locked out of possibilities. Elliott: Something had to give to make way. Peter Frampton? If you're not Peter Frampton, you're nobody.
John: Right. (laughs) But when it turns into this sort of fundamentalist, religious aspect... Elliott: Right. That's what I am talking about.
John: It's like no religion should be given weapons. Elliott: right. (laughs)
John: That would be a rule, if I were king of the world for a day: Fundamentalist is death. Elliott: Especially if it's a fundamentalist who comes from something that traditionally was like "Let's shake it the fuck up!" and then down the road it turns to "OK, you can shake things up, but only if you do it in this one way." (laughs)
John: My way of shaking. This is my way... Elliott: "Please shake it up just like you did before, please." (laughs) Elliott: I liked it that X changed.
John: I did too. Elliott: It was brave. I took it as a sign of strength.
John: I guess it's whether people can hang with you during that. I think if you believe in it and you do it all right, then no matter what, whether the people go with you or not, you still have done it and you should be happy and proud of it. Elliott: Yeah. Me too. It's one of the great things about music is that there are literally millions and millions of ways to plan. That you can do. Even just in one person, the possibilities are endless of what you could do. Like sometimes I start thinking about bands like Bush and stuff, I wonder what they could play if they play what they really liked to. Like assuming that it's not what really gets them going to play...
John: Exactly like Nirvana? Elliott: Yeah. To cop somebody else you know? But maybe that is, it just happens to be the kind of music that they really love. I don't know.
John: You know what? I don't think that people like that--like them or Silverchair or any number of "rip-off" bands--which, I think, is a new phenomena. I think in the '60s or '70s even as good or bad as that can be, if you had the idea first, that meant a lot. And anybody who copped that idea would be discarded as a rip-off artist. Whereas nowadays the radio is so hungry for that--or was--so hungry for that one sound. "I don't care, I need another Pearl Jam song." But I think that those people that are doing that--Silverchair et al--believe it. I think they are totally, 100 percent committed and they are not doing it so they can buy fancy cars. I think that in their heart, they are there. And they aren't doing it for bad reasons, they are not bad people. Elliott: That would be ideal. I like to carry a torch for people to be doing what they do for good reasons.
John: I still think that the bands suck and they are wrong for just copying someone else's idea. Elliott: I don't like Bush, but I honestly don't really dig it when people just totally trash stuff that they probably don't understand. Like I can't really understand being in Bush, so maybe I shouldn't go around trashing something that I don't get. (laughs) Elliott: Because who knows? They might be fully into what they are doing, like you were saying. And if they are then, you know, originality is great, but it's not the only thing about playing music you know? Way before Bob Dylan and the Beatles and all that, covers were the order of the day. And to me, Bush is sort of like a cover band, but they're not playing the exact songs, they are just covering the band.
John: Yeah, but they are also not just playing the Holiday Inn, either. Elliott: My only real complaint with them, which is not their fault, is that they hog up so much radio space that nobody else can [get the air time.] You can't hear a new song on the radio that you like because you've always got to sound like someone else or else it's not going to be on the radio. The only person I've seen who has gotten past that is Beck, as far as a really big song that you can hear on a classic rock station. Actually, I've heard you on the radio...
John: There is stuff that breaks through. And to be completely jaded about success and radio, it's a dangerous thing. It's really dangerous. Although there is so much information and so many reasons to be totally jaded. People have told me things about Bush and No Doubt that would just curl your hair and make you just want to throw in the towel and say, "Fuck it. You're right. It is all about money and it is all about paying off the right people." But you can't let that get in the way, because then you are done, like we were talking about before. You say, "OK, I quit. That's over. Oh. What do you mean, ‘Nobody gives a shit'?" Elliott: Well, all that is so far from the basic thing that I like about music.
John: And that's good. Elliott: I mean I can get upset about all that stuff, but...
John: But what's the point? Elliott: But after I get tired of getting upset about that stuff, then I want to play a song. Because I like playing songs. And even if I couldn't afford to buy a cassette tape to record onto, I would still play songs. That's the good thing about it, is nobody can fully take it away from you.
John: That's why actors are such basket cases. Because you can't do it unless somebody gives you as job. Elliott: Yeah.
John: That's one thing that they can't take away. They, the big they, the "us vs. them" ... they can't take away anything, really. Elliott: Nothing that's important.
John: You allow them to take away stuff by not saying "No, this is a better idea, I know this is going to work. This is the way we gotta do it." And then to have the fuckin business people to back you up. But it's funny what you were saying about "If I am not going to be chart number one because I do what's natural to me, those kind of songs, I'll always be a failure" is interesting because, at the point of saying "OK, X is over," for me, it was totally liberating from a writing point of view. And right at that point as well, I started instead of taking lyrics and make up a melody to it, I would make up a melody and then find lyrics that I had written or words that I had written and then just sort of move them into that... and then just sort of keep singing just nonsense shit, sort of like Paul McCartney and making that make sense. And I realized "All right, all of this whole music career that I have worked on is in danger of completely disappearing. This is good. This is a good place to be. Because number one, I feel like slitting my wrists. Number two, it's all over. And three, I can do anything." And it was totally fucking liberating. Elliott: Yeah, that's what I mean. It sounds like I am being really pessimistic and awful to be like "I'm never going to get the carrot. I'm always going to be a failure in a certain way," but it is a failure that means nothing to me. By accepting that I am not going to be at the top of the charts, it frees me up from all that crap like "Oh, I gotta be at the top of the charts." Because if I felt like that, my god, I'd never get anything done. I'd hate everything I'd do.
John: I think the only way that people [have chart success] is number one, being in the right place at the right time, which you definitely have going for you right now. You definitely are in the right place at the right time. Elliott: That would be the first time in my life.
John: I know. Hey man, I'm telling you what. When I drove past that Café Largo last night and there's a fucking line down the block, that's the same thing as when I looked outside the Whiskey-A-Go-Go and saw a line around that block in 1979 or 1980. Elliott: I wish I could have seen that show.
John: It's being in the right place at the right time. It's also being smart enough to take advantage of it. I think Beck is an example of that. Or, in a way, Fiona Apple. She is really kind of a frightening thing to me. That someone could be in that much pain and that fucked up and making a career out of it is really scary to me, it sort of gives me the creeps. But I think that she and the people that are working with her are really doing it, they're making it happen. And nowadays you can get there without being a joke, without being a manufactured hair band. Elliott: You think?
John: I think so. Elliott: I hope you're right. To me, it seems harder than ever to find anything on the radio that's not a joke. And I'm not talking about me or whatever my prospects are or aren't. It just seems so unlikely that anyone who I would like can get their foot in the door, radio-wise, who hasn't already had songs on the radio, you know? Like some new band or something? That's depressing.
John: But the newness is oftentimes what sells it. It's like damaged goods. You better watch out. Because [they might say], "Oh well, she or he had that shot and it didn't work out." (makes sizzling noise) Big sign of the cross against them. Because when you have had your shot and you didn't come through for them, it's like "Oh, I don't know..." Elliott: That's totally unfair.
John: Of course it is. But then you have to find another way to get around that so you can be something. Elliott: Well if you don't get too bitter, you can find your way around things. When you were saying before that "bitter" is the main enemy," I think that's true just in general, not even just for music. For me personally, that's enemy number one. Cause if you get bitter, you are sunk. What can you do?
John: Well, you're a drag is what it is. Elliott: Yeah. It's harder to be around other people and it's harder for people to be around you. Being able to be in love with someone is a lot harder. All the things that, to me, make life worthwhile are infinitely harder.
John: That's very smart. That's so true. Elliott: It's hard not to get bitter about things, apparently.
John: It is, but the alternative is like living versus dying. I am sure you have gotten to that point where you just want to check out. I've gotten to that point many, many times. And then you realize that "If I do this then it will be all over, right? Yeah. That's good. That's good. It would be good for this to be all over. I would be actually happier if it was all over." Elliot Smith is recording his fourth solo album, which will be released later this year by Kill Rock Stars. His most recent release is Either/Or, and his songs are also featured on the soundtrack to Good Will Hunting (Capitol). John Doe's new album, For The Rest Of Us, was released in February on Kill Rock Stars. Last year, Elektra released the two-CD X retrospective Beyond And Back: The X Anthology. |
